Horological Meandering

OBSCURE KNOWLEDGE QUIZZER/ Zenith cal 135
Jul 03 2008,11:57 AM

Hi guys,
I have located what may possible be a stupefyingly rare zenith cal 135 with mint BLACK dial!

But... did Zenith make them with black dials? I've only seen silver.

Any info, minutia, encyclopedic Zenith knowledge? Zenith-savant, this is your time to shine!

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Yes, usually with arrowhead hour index -nt-
Jul 03 2008,12:55 PM

*

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Thanks Suitbert
Jul 03 2008,13:44 PM

do you happen to know if they always came with 'star' crown? the one I may get seems to have a blank crown.

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That's a bit hard to say...
Jul 03 2008,15:09 PM

Hi,
iirc, the waterproof case examples should definetely have the signed crowns -  I'm almost  certain the earlier  snap back versions sometimes  were with plain crowns.
Anyway- the crown isn't a real problem - as far as I know they're even on stock at Zenith in LeLocle.

Obviously, I can't speak for the specific watch  (as the posters below seem to be able), but I know that the black dial existed (I've personally bought some original NOS replacement dials  a few years ago form Zenith - among them also black colour - also had at least two with poor black, deteriorated dials even much longer ago...).

As for originality - it would certainly be much easier to say something meaningfull with some pix., of course.

Best regards
Suitbert

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yes, I know that watch
Jul 03 2008,13:51 PM

one of the best 135s to come up for sale in a while

the dial does not seem suspicious, but I'd be wary of one of the hands

in regards to the crown, I should think that without the "Z-star" it would be aftermarket

Of the two 135's I have purchased, neither of them had a star crown

I do not think this should be enough to detract you from purchasing one of the most 'idiosyncratic' observatory movements from that time period though (assuming everything else checks out)

you will be very happy, these are some great watches

 

This message has been edited by dotman on 2008-07-03 14:20:33

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never seen a version with black dial that i'd trust...nt
Jul 03 2008,14:02 PM

 

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you might be right
Jul 03 2008,14:38 PM

there might be some other fussy elements going on...

I do not think the words 'Zenith' and 'Chronometre' should line up straight (on that variation, the word 'Chronometre' is much wider than 'Zenith')

choices, choices... :P

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WOW. Thanks everyone, I wish
Jul 03 2008,17:37 PM

I could 'grab' photos from website but the site prevents that. I am going to PM you, Suitbert, and tell you the website, as I cannot link here. If anyone else would like to see the watch, pls PM me. (BTW, it is on hold for me, at the moment.)

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Re: photo
Jul 03 2008,19:26 PM

is it this one?

I'm actually kind of curious myself now, if only for the sake of curiosity!

hope this does not conflict any rules

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yes, that is the one.
Jul 03 2008,19:48 PM

Thanks!

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there is also a turned picture where the dial shows up better
Jul 03 2008,19:50 PM

if you know how to grab that one too. There's also better movement pics there.

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Amazing watch
Jul 03 2008,22:45 PM

Hi Mostel,

I've not been tempted like that in a while!

Congrats for getting it on hold. And like that you can send me the link so that I have a look! 

Cheers

Dje

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KEEP LOOKING! New PIC!
Jul 04 2008,08:43 AM

So i found here a pic of a watch sold by Christie's. It's not such a great pic but you can see the word Zenith appears to be the same 'length' as the word chronometre. Is it possible this is how black dials were done?

Also, Dotman has noted that the seconds hand on 'my' watch appears to not be correct.

Please share your thoughts.

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Okay... even more info...
Jul 04 2008,09:19 AM

I have spoken to the seller, who is enormously reputable, and a hugely respected and well liked player in the vintage game, and he tells me he has seen this exact dial several times in his career, and that he is 99.9% certain the dial is original. (I'm not God, he laughed, but...) From the tone of his voice and reputation, I tend to believe him. He agreed that the seconds hand is not correct and agreed to have it changed, he also agreed to install a correct star crown.

At this point, it would be hard to argue against the watch's merits and authenticity, I think... but... still I'd like to hear your thoughts.

There seems to be zero doubt that Zenith did indeed manufacture 135's with black dials--they are much rarer than the silver, but absolutely were manufactured. The fact that the word zenith is elongated is quite possibly a style difference, as watchmakers are prone to do... as you can see from the FL version in above-post's photo, it appears that black dials were sometimes this way...

(I think no one can be 100% certain, do you? We try our best to answer these questions, but with a rare example, we just do our best from knowledge and past pictures.)

Does anyone have a Zenith history book?

I'm feeling very good about this watch.  What do you think?

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Believe it or not, Mostel, I reached for my copy of . . .
Jul 04 2008,10:32 AM

. . . "Wristwatches - History of a Century's Development" by Kahlert, Mühe, and Brunner, and opened the book to page 346, upon which there's a photo of a silver dial 1960 Zenith 2000 with the same movement. To quote: 'steel case, 35 mm diameter, 13-line movement, caliber 135, 19 jewels, Incabloc shock resistance, monometallic screw balance with diameter almost that of the movement radius, self-compensating Breguet hairspring, fine regulation via worm gear, Geneva stripes'. Congrats on acquiring this incredibly handsome piece of mechanical art, Mostel . . . cordially, Art

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Thanks Art! [nt]
Jul 04 2008,10:54 AM

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Zenith 135s
Jul 04 2008,19:35 PM

Hi Mostel

I just wanted to first say ,I am on the road and my laptop crashed.  I am using my in-laws computer...

I owned three different case styled Zenith 135s over the years...

First a silver dial 34 mm steel snapback case...

Notice it has the Z star crown, original silver dial.

here is a movement shot..

I sold the above watch years ago....

Then I aquired a black dial 36 mm screwback case in steel...  I Sold to a friend years ago. He still has it and I took some additional pics of it with my Other 135... It also has a Z star crown.  I just found a backup drive in the bottom of my overnight bag!! And i found some old pics...

back of the screwback case...

 

My third 135 is in a 36.5 mm ( largest screwback case style as far as I have seen over the last 20 years). "Captain" style case.  The Captain was Zeniths version of the Omega Seamaster case dress sports water resistant case style. This one has a silver dial with pink applied markers and numbers!  I have never seen another one in this style case. It also has a Z star crown and Z star buckle.! 

and here is an ad from Zenith i think its from 1948 ( back of page date)  Interesting they show a jet powered plane!

The 135 is a great classic chronometre movement.... Looking back I am sad that I sold the two smaller ones over the years...

Good Hunting

 

Bill Sohne

 

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This dial is a bit special....
Jul 04 2008,11:36 AM

..in so far that is seems to be one of the Favre Leuba versions.
Favre Leuba sold Zenith as retailer (for example in India) and this seems to be an example of the
double signed version.

Additonally those dials were "gilt write" i.e. the script is galvanized and different form the normal, printed dials.

I'll drop you a PM for some additional thoughts.

Best regards
Suitbert

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Thanks Jerome!
Jul 04 2008,09:23 AM

PM coming.

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Hello Mostel....(reply to your mail)
Jul 04 2008,11:33 AM

My opinion is only worth what you paid for it but personally i struggle to equate a black dial with ChronomeTRE....so for that reason i guess i'm a touch bias. The two watches highlighted are different to what i have seen and the problem arises which is re-done and which is factory original or even a second generation service replacement. Try to remember not to take your eye of the ball and not be too excited with the colour of the dial....the case will still need inspecting....the version highlighted in this thread seems to be a least the 3rd style used by Zenith and of course it is upto yourself to pick just the lot your taste-buds desires. There are some rare styles of silver dial out there...one with a lovely engine-turned centre chapter and for me applied furniture trumps embossed regardless of colour. Besides that i like a dial to look vintage from the moment my eye falls on it. Good luck

Star Crown.

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This message has been edited by C.vallely5 on 2008-07-04 11:38:26 This message has been edited by C.vallely5 on 2008-07-04 12:02:19

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Thank you catherine. [nt]
Jul 04 2008,12:13 PM

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Thank you! nt
Jul 04 2008,12:28 PM

nt

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